Can't Update Incomplete Headers With Get New Headers

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Bob Ptaker

2013-09-12 19:56:24 UTC

I am trying to work with Forte Agent tech support but so far have not
had much success. They seem to be stumped. Perhaps someone here can
help me.

The Problem: When I download headers in a newsgroup and it is
incomplete, I wait for some time. Then I try Get new headers. Those
incomplete headers NEVER get updated. See below the test I did. Only
Get sample headers updated the incomplete headers.

1- Action: Catch up with newsgroup Alt.binaries.nl
2- Wait 15 minutes
3- Get new headers. Lock all incomplete headers and delete the others.
4- Wait 30 minutes.
5- Get new headers. Result: Not one of over 100 incomplete headers
were updated to complete headers. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
6- Unlock all the headers and delete them.
7- Now check the box tech support suggested, servers --> select my
server(s) --> Advanced --> Check the box "Server creates messages out
of order".
8- Repeat steps 1 - 5. Result: Only 5 locked incomplete headers do
update to complete out of the over 100 locked incomplete files. Then
immediately proceed to steps 9 & 10.
9- Uncheck the box "Server creates messages out of order" and apply.
(Not sure if this step is necessary but wanted to eliminate chance
that it did affect this problem).
10- Do Action: Get Headers --> Sample recent headers --> only for one
day (since all the headers were from today). Result: All but 10 of the
over 100 incomplete headers did complete. Getting headers with the box
checked in step #7 did little to solve my problem.

CONCLUSION: This proves that there is something very wrong with the
"Get new headers" option. It does not update the incomplete files
after the incomplete files are on the computer. Checking the box
"Server creates messages out of order" only updated 5 out of over 100
incomplete headers. The ONLY sure way to update the incomplete headers
on the computer was to do a "Sample recent headers".

REQUEST: Please help me get the program back to where it should be.
It has to be the program or the settings.I am working on Windows XP
SP3.

Bob

Ralph Fox

2013-09-12 20:10:16 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bob Ptaker
I am trying to work with Forte Agent tech support but so far have not
had much success. They seem to be stumped. Perhaps someone here can
help me.
The Problem: When I download headers in a newsgroup and it is
incomplete, I wait for some time. Then I try Get new headers. Those
incomplete headers NEVER get updated. See below the test I did. Only
Get sample headers updated the incomplete headers.
1- Action: Catch up with newsgroup Alt.binaries.nl
2- Wait 15 minutes
3- Get new headers. Lock all incomplete headers and delete the others.
4- Wait 30 minutes.
5- Get new headers. Result: Not one of over 100 incomplete headers
were updated to complete headers. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
6- Unlock all the headers and delete them.
7- Now check the box tech support suggested, servers --> select my
server(s) --> Advanced --> Check the box "Server creates messages out
of order".
8- Repeat steps 1 - 5. Result: Only 5 locked incomplete headers do
update to complete out of the over 100 locked incomplete files. Then
immediately proceed to steps 9 & 10.

You checked the box after the parts were missing, not before.
The box "Server creates messages out of order" helps only with
headers that will be posted AFTER checking this box, not with
headers that have already been posted and are already incomplete.

Post by Bob Ptaker
9- Uncheck the box "Server creates messages out of order" and apply.
(Not sure if this step is necessary but wanted to eliminate chance
that it did affect this problem).
10- Do Action: Get Headers --> Sample recent headers --> only for one
day (since all the headers were from today). Result: All but 10 of the
over 100 incomplete headers did complete. Getting headers with the box
checked in step #7 did little to solve my problem.
CONCLUSION: This proves that there is something very wrong with the
"Get new headers" option. It does not update the incomplete files
after the incomplete files are on the computer. Checking the box
"Server creates messages out of order" only updated 5 out of over 100
incomplete headers. The ONLY sure way to update the incomplete headers
on the computer was to do a "Sample recent headers".
REQUEST: Please help me get the program back to where it should be.
It has to be the program or the settings.I am working on Windows XP
SP3.

Use "Sample headers" to retrieve the missing parts. Choose a number
of headers (parts) that is big enough to go back as far as the
missing parts. The number of headers counts parts, not joined headers.

For more help, see the thread "Strange Header Behavior" from 3 days ago.

--
Kind regards
Ralph

Bob Ptaker

2013-09-17 01:57:09 UTC

Permalink

Post by Ralph Fox

Use "Sample headers" to retrieve the missing parts. Choose a number
of headers (parts) that is big enough to go back as far as the
missing parts. The number of headers counts parts, not joined headers.
For more help, see the thread "Strange Header Behavior" from 3 days ago.

HI Ralph,

Thank you taking the time to respond.

I did see and understand your reply AND the points made in Strange
Header Behavior. My point is that incomplete headers in the past were
updated by repeating the action "Get new headers" in the folder after
some time has passed. This is NOT happening now. Now the only way to
get the incomplete headers to complete themselves is to Sample Recent
Headers".

Also, if the Get New Headers did not complete, that would mean that
the missing parts are not yet posted. But that is not true since right
after Get New Headers did not work the Sample Recent Headers did work.
Therefore the missing parts were there to be used but the program did
NOT use them.

As I understand the program, the Get New Headers should update the
headers, incomplete as well as adding new ones. Now it seems to be
broken.

Can you help?

Bob

Jaimie Vandenbergh

2013-09-17 02:23:20 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bob Ptaker
My point is that incomplete headers in the past were
updated by repeating the action "Get new headers" in the folder after
some time has passed. This is NOT happening now.

This is a server issue, not an Agent issue. You're using Easynews,
right? I see it pretty often in binary groups.

I suspect it's caused by crap synchronisation between the set of
frontend servers and the backend header servers: if you get some parts
of a post, then leave long enough between "get headers" for the
connection from you to a particular frontend server (or maybe from the
frontend to a particular backend server) to time out, then when it
re-establishes you sometimes get a non-overlap between the headers,
leaving the missing segments that you see.

It shouldn't happen. I blame Highwinds, who really do miss out some
fundamental facilities from their NNTP software.

(Note that APN is also supplied by Easynews, from the same server
farm, shows the same problem)

Cheers - Jaimie

--
I like my coffee how I like my women...
but I can't get coffee that's independent, intelligent and has a
career of its own. - Eric Jarvis, urs

Lab Lover

2013-09-17 12:04:27 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bob Ptaker

Post by Ralph Fox

Use "Sample headers" to retrieve the missing parts. Choose a number
of headers (parts) that is big enough to go back as far as the
missing parts. The number of headers counts parts, not joined headers.
For more help, see the thread "Strange Header Behavior" from 3 days ago.

HI Ralph,
Thank you taking the time to respond.
I did see and understand your reply AND the points made in Strange
Header Behavior. My point is that incomplete headers in the past were
updated by repeating the action "Get new headers" in the folder after
some time has passed. This is NOT happening now. Now the only way to
get the incomplete headers to complete themselves is to Sample Recent
Headers".
Also, if the Get New Headers did not complete, that would mean that
the missing parts are not yet posted. But that is not true since right
after Get New Headers did not work the Sample Recent Headers did work.
Therefore the missing parts were there to be used but the program did
NOT use them.
As I understand the program, the Get New Headers should update the
headers, incomplete as well as adding new ones. Now it seems to be
broken.
Can you help?

This is an Easynews problem and it has been happening for several
weeks now, I am experiencing the same issue.

Head over to easynews.support and let them know what is going on.

Then, to compensate for the issue, use "Action-> Get Headers -> Sample
Recent Headers" enter the number of days you need to go back in
order to complete the posts you are interested in downloading.

Ralph Fox

2013-09-21 02:17:36 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bob Ptaker
Thank you taking the time to respond.
I did see and understand your reply AND the points made in Strange
Header Behavior. My point is that incomplete headers in the past were
updated by repeating the action "Get new headers" in the folder after
some time has passed. This is NOT happening now. Now the only way to
get the incomplete headers to complete themselves is to Sample Recent
Headers".

That is something happening at the server, which you have little
control over. It is all to do with what "Server creates messages
out of order" actually means.

These are things which might have changed at your end, to increase
the chances of you seeing this problem:

a) If you now click "Get New Headers" much more frequently than before.

b) If the multipart messages which you are now choosing to go after,
happen to be cross-posted to two or more groups.

c) If you recently turned off "Server creates messages out of order".

Post by Bob Ptaker
Also, if the Get New Headers did not complete, that would mean that
the missing parts are not yet posted. But that is not true since right
after Get New Headers did not work the Sample Recent Headers did work.
Therefore the missing parts were there to be used but the program did
NOT use them.
As I understand the program, the Get New Headers should update the
headers, incomplete as well as adding new ones. Now it seems to be
broken.

If Get New Headers did not complete the joined header, that does not
mean that the missing parts are not yet posted. It can also mean
that the news server added the missing parts "out of order".

If you think about it:

1. When you use "Get New Headers", your newsreader does not download
all headers in the group and check which of them are new. Your
newsreader asks the server for new headers and relies on the news
server to correctly separate the new from the old.

Downloading all headers could take some time especially in busy
binary groups. Your news server Eaynews has massive retention.

2. Your newsreader asks the server for _new_ headers, and the server
does not send one or two of the headers (parts) which you rightfully
consider new.

3. Your newsreader _samples_ headers, i.e. asks the server for a range of
headers both new and old, and if the sample range is large enough
then the server does send the missing headers (parts) which you
rightfully consider new.

The missing parts are "out of order" among the old headers.

People were seeing this with some servers back in the 1990's. This
problem is not a new problem.

--
Kind regards
Ralph